Maybe this is splitting hairs, but I’ve always viewed “go woke go broke” in media specifically, not as shows and moves being “woke” or “progressive” I think most people expect that to some extent. But “go woke go broke” is I think often used as short hand for putting “The Message” before the story. Most people are ok with, or will at least put up with, “wokeness” if the story is well told. I think a good comparison is House of the Dragon and Rings of Power both in a “fantasy historical European setting” both with “diverse casts” both came out at the same time, House of the Dragon was pretty well received because it told an engaging story pretty well, and Rings of power was panned because it couldn’t get out of its own way to tell an interesting story. As to The Boys it’s always been “woke”/progressive but look at the reception to the last season in comparison to the first few. The first few seasons put story first, the last season not so much.
I totally agree Brendon - to me, most of the examples of successful and unsuccessful series that Mike lists here aren't woke, because they're not didactic, preachy and brow-beating in the way the worst woke TV drama tends to be (e.g. Star Trek Discovery and Picard, Doctor Who, The Acolyte). I argued recently that the reason that "woke" writing is so bad is because it has very little interest in its characters as people, seeing them purely as symbols and vectors. Woke writing sees diversity as an endpoint, a goal in and of itself, whereas good writing treats diversity more as a starting point. https://open.substack.com/pub/wolfstar/p/woke-writing-treats-diversity-as
I think the Boys example is a good illustration of "But its always been WOKE!" Well yes, its politics have always been leftist, fearing fascism. But it is not preachy, and included barbs at sanctimonious tow-faced progressives. The AOC-type character was a perfect example.
The Boys wasn’t preachy, And I don’t think most people cared so long as it was telling an engaging story. The most recent season on the other hand really dialed up the preaching.
I think right wingers get a lot of things wrong, but I do think people have gotten a little exhausted of all the blatant politics in stuff (even when they agree with it!) and it seems Hollywood is already self correcting a bit. A few points:
1. I think most people actually _like_ seeing diversity in casting, regardless of what crazy people on Twitter say, and there are plenty of examples of popular programs that feature Black or Asian or Latino actors. The reason the new Little Mermaid failed wasn’t due to the race of the lead but instead because it was just a poorly made movie (live action doesn’t work great for underwater scenes, for example)
2. Political messaging is fine as long as it’s at least a little bit obscured and doesn’t smack you over the head. It’s basically impossible for a story to be completely politically neutral anyways, even pure escapism like Marvel movies have some messaging baked in about Malthusianism or whatever.
3. The real problem with woke writing in fiction is when it prevents you from telling a good story, eg if the race/gender of a character means they are required to be either perfect or perfectly evil and hence no character development can happen.
4. A related issue is when you pick writers/actors (woke or unwoke) that actually hate the source material and spend all their offscreen and onscreen time trashing it. Eg the new Star Wars movies could have treated Luke and Han respectfully while still telling compelling stories about Rey and Finn, it wasn’t necessary to trash the original characters just to build up the new ones.
I’d vote for Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, Broad City, and High Maintenance, all mid 2010s slight but fun shows with white leads that definitely liked to showcase their “inclusivity” but weren’t insufferable about it. They represented the earliest wave of this aesthetic. More recently I was impressed by HBO’s I Might Destroy You, which had the approved aesthetics and demographics but still had some excellent episodes. And I admittedly enjoyed Ryan Murphy’s Hollywood, which was stupid trash but lots of dumb fun.
Hmm. The whole issue of about the corrosive effect of "being woke" to me is silly and pathetic. She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel were entertaining (though She-Hulk's destruction of the fourth wall was a bit much) and that's all I ask for. But the "Good Place" as going broke!? That was a perfect show and no one got beat in the head with a hammer (but I liked "The Watchmen" as well)
As a decidedly non-woke (but liberal) person, there's a lot of good, fairly self-consciously "woke" media out there. In particular, my favorite genre of visual media is probably "woke" cartoons, e.g. Stephen Universe, Nimona, Luca, She-Ra.
I also tend to like music where the singer is several shades to the left of me. I'm a big fan of Phil Ochs and Kimya Dawson, even if I'm pretty sure with would object to me and my politics.
I'd argue that Orange is the New Black became much more socially oriented in the later seasons as it diverged from the source material. This NYT article previewing season 7 describes the transition from season 4 to 5 as a "fulcrum" where "the series tilted more toward the somber". Not coincidentally, season 5 has a 71% on Rotten Tomatoes while seasons 1-4 are all mid 90s.
This isn't to say that the first few seasons weren't "political", but they were more grounded and character-focused. A typical S1 plotline would be something like how the protagonist - a bougie woman sent to prison - is feeling isolated and out of place among the prison population. One scene has her complain that she's falling behind on Mad Men and the episode ends with her boyfriend watching it without her. Meanwhile, another prisoner is bitter that she missed a chance to reconnect with her father on his deathbed. The contrast highlights how petty many middle-class concerns are. A typical post-S5 plotline will act as a proxy for the killing of Freddy Gray or a private prison corporation opening an ICE detention facility. The later plots were much less focused on how social institutions affect the characters and more focused on using the characters to show the institutions. Probably the most heavy handed example was a Jewish and Muslim inmate having a conflict over access to "the west bunk" in their cell.
I didn't know it was so self conscious, but that comports with my impressions. I also don't remember the "west bunk" thing, but maybe it was kind of tongue in cheek and self conscious rather than preachy and meant to be seen as deep and subtextual.
Maybe this is splitting hairs, but I’ve always viewed “go woke go broke” in media specifically, not as shows and moves being “woke” or “progressive” I think most people expect that to some extent. But “go woke go broke” is I think often used as short hand for putting “The Message” before the story. Most people are ok with, or will at least put up with, “wokeness” if the story is well told. I think a good comparison is House of the Dragon and Rings of Power both in a “fantasy historical European setting” both with “diverse casts” both came out at the same time, House of the Dragon was pretty well received because it told an engaging story pretty well, and Rings of power was panned because it couldn’t get out of its own way to tell an interesting story. As to The Boys it’s always been “woke”/progressive but look at the reception to the last season in comparison to the first few. The first few seasons put story first, the last season not so much.
I totally agree Brendon - to me, most of the examples of successful and unsuccessful series that Mike lists here aren't woke, because they're not didactic, preachy and brow-beating in the way the worst woke TV drama tends to be (e.g. Star Trek Discovery and Picard, Doctor Who, The Acolyte). I argued recently that the reason that "woke" writing is so bad is because it has very little interest in its characters as people, seeing them purely as symbols and vectors. Woke writing sees diversity as an endpoint, a goal in and of itself, whereas good writing treats diversity more as a starting point. https://open.substack.com/pub/wolfstar/p/woke-writing-treats-diversity-as
I think the Boys example is a good illustration of "But its always been WOKE!" Well yes, its politics have always been leftist, fearing fascism. But it is not preachy, and included barbs at sanctimonious tow-faced progressives. The AOC-type character was a perfect example.
The Boys wasn’t preachy, And I don’t think most people cared so long as it was telling an engaging story. The most recent season on the other hand really dialed up the preaching.
I think right wingers get a lot of things wrong, but I do think people have gotten a little exhausted of all the blatant politics in stuff (even when they agree with it!) and it seems Hollywood is already self correcting a bit. A few points:
1. I think most people actually _like_ seeing diversity in casting, regardless of what crazy people on Twitter say, and there are plenty of examples of popular programs that feature Black or Asian or Latino actors. The reason the new Little Mermaid failed wasn’t due to the race of the lead but instead because it was just a poorly made movie (live action doesn’t work great for underwater scenes, for example)
2. Political messaging is fine as long as it’s at least a little bit obscured and doesn’t smack you over the head. It’s basically impossible for a story to be completely politically neutral anyways, even pure escapism like Marvel movies have some messaging baked in about Malthusianism or whatever.
3. The real problem with woke writing in fiction is when it prevents you from telling a good story, eg if the race/gender of a character means they are required to be either perfect or perfectly evil and hence no character development can happen.
4. A related issue is when you pick writers/actors (woke or unwoke) that actually hate the source material and spend all their offscreen and onscreen time trashing it. Eg the new Star Wars movies could have treated Luke and Han respectfully while still telling compelling stories about Rey and Finn, it wasn’t necessary to trash the original characters just to build up the new ones.
I’d vote for Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, Broad City, and High Maintenance, all mid 2010s slight but fun shows with white leads that definitely liked to showcase their “inclusivity” but weren’t insufferable about it. They represented the earliest wave of this aesthetic. More recently I was impressed by HBO’s I Might Destroy You, which had the approved aesthetics and demographics but still had some excellent episodes. And I admittedly enjoyed Ryan Murphy’s Hollywood, which was stupid trash but lots of dumb fun.
In addition to not being insufferable, Crazy Ex Girlfriend had a whimsy to the inclusivity stuff as this rap exchange demonstrates:
[REBECCA:] Uh, that word is racist, someone ought to tell you
Like me, I belong to the ACLU
[AUDRA:] Spare me
I'm a card-carrying member
Plus, I spent a semester in Kenya, remember?
[REBECCA:] Well, I volunteered in Ghana
[AUDRA:] Well, I guess that makes us equal
[REBECCA:] Well, it's settled then
[REBECCA and AUDRA:] We're both cool with black people
[AUDRA:] 'Cause we're liberals
[REBECCA:] Duh, progressive as hell
[REBECCA & AUDRA:] Though, of course, I support Israel
wait what’s the issue with Good Place season 4?
I thought Ms Marvel was pretty good!
Hmm. The whole issue of about the corrosive effect of "being woke" to me is silly and pathetic. She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel were entertaining (though She-Hulk's destruction of the fourth wall was a bit much) and that's all I ask for. But the "Good Place" as going broke!? That was a perfect show and no one got beat in the head with a hammer (but I liked "The Watchmen" as well)
As a decidedly non-woke (but liberal) person, there's a lot of good, fairly self-consciously "woke" media out there. In particular, my favorite genre of visual media is probably "woke" cartoons, e.g. Stephen Universe, Nimona, Luca, She-Ra.
I also tend to like music where the singer is several shades to the left of me. I'm a big fan of Phil Ochs and Kimya Dawson, even if I'm pretty sure with would object to me and my politics.
How about major manufacturers turning down CHIPs act $ because the diversity requirements were too stringent: https://thehill.com/opinion/4517470-dei-killed-the-chips-act/mlite/?nxs-test=mlite
I disagree. "The Watchmen" was perfect, start to finish.
That's my opinion too.
My wife and I stopped watching after 4 episodes we found it so insufferable. 🤷🏼♂️
I'd argue that Orange is the New Black became much more socially oriented in the later seasons as it diverged from the source material. This NYT article previewing season 7 describes the transition from season 4 to 5 as a "fulcrum" where "the series tilted more toward the somber". Not coincidentally, season 5 has a 71% on Rotten Tomatoes while seasons 1-4 are all mid 90s.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/17/arts/television/orange-is-the-new-black-final-season.html
This isn't to say that the first few seasons weren't "political", but they were more grounded and character-focused. A typical S1 plotline would be something like how the protagonist - a bougie woman sent to prison - is feeling isolated and out of place among the prison population. One scene has her complain that she's falling behind on Mad Men and the episode ends with her boyfriend watching it without her. Meanwhile, another prisoner is bitter that she missed a chance to reconnect with her father on his deathbed. The contrast highlights how petty many middle-class concerns are. A typical post-S5 plotline will act as a proxy for the killing of Freddy Gray or a private prison corporation opening an ICE detention facility. The later plots were much less focused on how social institutions affect the characters and more focused on using the characters to show the institutions. Probably the most heavy handed example was a Jewish and Muslim inmate having a conflict over access to "the west bunk" in their cell.
I didn't know it was so self conscious, but that comports with my impressions. I also don't remember the "west bunk" thing, but maybe it was kind of tongue in cheek and self conscious rather than preachy and meant to be seen as deep and subtextual.