Similarly, in what historical examples of "fascism" or "autocracy" did people feel free to openly criticize their government and leaders using those terms?
Gonna go straight to the lowest hanging fruit on this one because it's just such a fucking dumb comment. Sorry, TJ.
Yes, people, political parties and the press complained loudly when Hitler came to power. People and press complained when Pinochet took power. Kim Il Sung was publicly and secretly condemned by Koreans. Etc... etc...
Maybe. And I apologize for my language, I was being an asshole. I'm sorry.
I think my point is that if someone is gathering apples and sugar and flour, you can't fault someone for thinking he might be wanting to bake a pie, even if he's too stupid to turn on an oven.
I’m sorry Mike, but you’ve lost me here. You correctly worry about the infringement of freedoms on college campuses through the actions of the zealous wokes, but shrug when a right wing political leader stifles free media well beyond the campus. Budapest did not become Moscow, but the damage to the country’s political and civic institutions will take time to repair. This looks like an occasion when your contrarianism has led you to an intellectually disingenuous position
Where are you getting a shrug? No shrug. Cheer for his defeat. Orban was a horror show and it was good he lost. Read my 2nd sentence. The point is he did lose. He was vulnerable. Just like Trump. He's not that powerful. Vote against him he'll lose,just watch.
You beat me to seeing Scott's response and approvingly posting a link.
The comments here are brief enough, maybe I should have rescanned them before reposting. Sorry if I detracted from your calling attention.
I would note my perspective is slightly different:
That we're becoming too susceptible to the attraction of quick hyperbolic harsh judgements.
I found that in the pronouncements Mike was critiquing, in Mike's response, and even among the criticism of Mike's criticism.
Sometimes people get a thing wrong just because humans get things wrong occasionally.
Maybe my more reserved tendency is just something I picked up from a variety of midwestern Christian culture. That's the stereotype for better or worse. Could just be dispositional too. 🤔😉
"I think he basically gets the balance between “pretty bad” and “not a full dictator” right, and my only qualm is with that one paragraph." -- From that article, footnote two
Trump's rise exposed the weakened state of the two parties and, more upsetting to me, coincided with the feeble state of news media and a diminishing interest in free speech.
He's incompetent in many ways, but clearly competent enough to win the most powerful public seat in the world and wield its might in a new and troubling fashion.
Does he consciously want to be a dictator? Let's go back and ask a preliminary question: Did he want to actually be president when he ran the first time? Good arguments say, No. But once he stumbled onto that podium, he seemed to enjoy the view. One could assume he'd react the same way to a more autocratic Executive Office if he met less opposition.
So while I mostly agree with and enjoy your opinion on this, I don't think Trump will avoid autocracy because he's intrinsically not an authoritarian douchebag. He'll avoid it because, as a liberal democracy with a robust constitution and a fairly functional Judicial branch, there are too many guardrails in the US to let his lunatic imagination go much further than it has.
Trump may not be a dictator, but he is certainly making every effort to be one. Meanwhile, he contents himself with complete corruption that enriches family and a few select friends.
Yeah, obviously the problem can only be with my reading comprehension and not with your shitty take about a subject you have a very shallow understanding of.
Here's a report film published by Hungarian investigative journalists and activits shortly before the election about the methods employed by Orbán's party to coerce the poorest voters with money or the threat of authority.
The incredible work of thousands of volunteers recruited by this action group has been invaluable in stopping mass voter intimidation in the poorest villages this time around, but sure, he was not an authoritarian and we just woke up one morning and decided to vote him out.
An op-ed recently ran in our local paper: "Like Hungarians, Americans, too, could say ‘no’ to a despot". Commenters un-ironically called Orban a dictator. It seems to me that the terms despot, dictator, autocrat and the like are not intended to be used accurately, but rather as intentionally inflamatory language of an opposition.
This push back seemed to me almost as over-the-top as some of what Mike is criticizing.
This feels like another missed opportunity for nuance in a hyper tribal age of outrage,
I think in this case Scott Alexander has it about right in his critique specifically referencing Mike's argument.
Orban Was Bad, Even Though We Don't Have A Perfect Word For His Badness
https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/orban-was-bad-even-though-we-dont
Similarly, in what historical examples of "fascism" or "autocracy" did people feel free to openly criticize their government and leaders using those terms?
Gonna go straight to the lowest hanging fruit on this one because it's just such a fucking dumb comment. Sorry, TJ.
Yes, people, political parties and the press complained loudly when Hitler came to power. People and press complained when Pinochet took power. Kim Il Sung was publicly and secretly condemned by Koreans. Etc... etc...
Is your point that we might descend into these things eventually? I guess that’s a contribution.
Maybe. And I apologize for my language, I was being an asshole. I'm sorry.
I think my point is that if someone is gathering apples and sugar and flour, you can't fault someone for thinking he might be wanting to bake a pie, even if he's too stupid to turn on an oven.
I’m sorry Mike, but you’ve lost me here. You correctly worry about the infringement of freedoms on college campuses through the actions of the zealous wokes, but shrug when a right wing political leader stifles free media well beyond the campus. Budapest did not become Moscow, but the damage to the country’s political and civic institutions will take time to repair. This looks like an occasion when your contrarianism has led you to an intellectually disingenuous position
Where are you getting a shrug? No shrug. Cheer for his defeat. Orban was a horror show and it was good he lost. Read my 2nd sentence. The point is he did lose. He was vulnerable. Just like Trump. He's not that powerful. Vote against him he'll lose,just watch.
I take your point. Just beware of becoming the reverse Timothy Snyder. The boy may be attention seeking, but sometimes it is a wolf
open.substack.com/pub/astralcodexten/p/orban-was-bad-even-though-we-dont
The above largely sets out why I think the above article is a disingenuous, unnuanced and stupid take.
You beat me to seeing Scott's response and approvingly posting a link.
The comments here are brief enough, maybe I should have rescanned them before reposting. Sorry if I detracted from your calling attention.
I would note my perspective is slightly different:
That we're becoming too susceptible to the attraction of quick hyperbolic harsh judgements.
I found that in the pronouncements Mike was critiquing, in Mike's response, and even among the criticism of Mike's criticism.
Sometimes people get a thing wrong just because humans get things wrong occasionally.
Maybe my more reserved tendency is just something I picked up from a variety of midwestern Christian culture. That's the stereotype for better or worse. Could just be dispositional too. 🤔😉
Certainly. I generally like Mike's writing, and often his contrarian takes in particular. This, however was a miss.
"I think he basically gets the balance between “pretty bad” and “not a full dictator” right, and my only qualm is with that one paragraph." -- From that article, footnote two
An unserious take from somebody who i thought at least was serious
Trump's rise exposed the weakened state of the two parties and, more upsetting to me, coincided with the feeble state of news media and a diminishing interest in free speech.
He's incompetent in many ways, but clearly competent enough to win the most powerful public seat in the world and wield its might in a new and troubling fashion.
Does he consciously want to be a dictator? Let's go back and ask a preliminary question: Did he want to actually be president when he ran the first time? Good arguments say, No. But once he stumbled onto that podium, he seemed to enjoy the view. One could assume he'd react the same way to a more autocratic Executive Office if he met less opposition.
So while I mostly agree with and enjoy your opinion on this, I don't think Trump will avoid autocracy because he's intrinsically not an authoritarian douchebag. He'll avoid it because, as a liberal democracy with a robust constitution and a fairly functional Judicial branch, there are too many guardrails in the US to let his lunatic imagination go much further than it has.
Trump may not be a dictator, but he is certainly making every effort to be one. Meanwhile, he contents himself with complete corruption that enriches family and a few select friends.
Go fuck yourself, Mike Pesca. - A Hungarian voter who lived her entire adult life under Orbán.
We have to find this Hungarian and tell her to read better.
Yeah, obviously the problem can only be with my reading comprehension and not with your shitty take about a subject you have a very shallow understanding of.
Here's a report film published by Hungarian investigative journalists and activits shortly before the election about the methods employed by Orbán's party to coerce the poorest voters with money or the threat of authority.
https://youtu.be/ZCwQR5HRWR8?is=CRsCcOx7r2bgEIMg
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c36r0068xp2o
The incredible work of thousands of volunteers recruited by this action group has been invaluable in stopping mass voter intimidation in the poorest villages this time around, but sure, he was not an authoritarian and we just woke up one morning and decided to vote him out.
An op-ed recently ran in our local paper: "Like Hungarians, Americans, too, could say ‘no’ to a despot". Commenters un-ironically called Orban a dictator. It seems to me that the terms despot, dictator, autocrat and the like are not intended to be used accurately, but rather as intentionally inflamatory language of an opposition.